Neural Darwinism
Neural Darwinism
Monday Jul 11, 2022
Monday Jul 11, 2022
“Can consciousness be seen as the key to understanding our surroundings and organizing our actions?” — David Edelman, PhD, Neuroscientist and Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College
Ep 22: Consciousness Has an Integrative Function with Neuroscientist, David Edelman
Episode 22 of our podcast On Consciousness brings back neuroscientist David Edelman, who graciously hosted this discussion in the home of his late father, Nobel Laureate Gerald M. Edelman. Some have argued that consciousness is only a side effect of the brain, but from an evolutionary point of view, major adaptations result from intense genetic pressures, which are causal. The exact nature of that causality is still under debate. One evolutionary function of consciousness is likely to be sensory and action (motor) integration. It seems that consciousness is needed anytime two sensory events have to be combined, like the sound of a bird and the sight of that same bird, or the sound of a singer and her lip movements. Even this sentence requires conscious involvement to combine the beginning with its ending. Consciousness has an integrative function.
Talking Points
0:00 – Intro by Nat Geld
0:53 – Is awareness just a side effect of the brain?
5:56 – Does consciousness occur with a delay?
9:13 – Resolving Ambiguity in the World
12:59 – From Uncertainty to Predictability: A major function of consciousness.
18:33 – Fine-tuning the Senses: Perceptual learning.
Summary
Controversies Over Causality
Bernie and David mull over the causal role of consciousness in the brain. Bernie mentions that Darwin’s public advocate, Thomas Henry Huxley, claimed that consciousness might only be a side effect of the brain in the way that the steam whistle of a locomotive can be considered to be a side effect of the heating of the giant steam vessel. But this seems to violate the physics of the conservation of energy — the steam vessel is, in fact, driving the train whistle. Still, the notion of consciousness as a side effect continues to be debated in philosophy.
David then suggests that one causal role for consciousness may be a retrospective glance at sensory information in the very brief time after visual neurons are activated.
David suggests that consciousness may involve a retrospective assessment as opposed to anything else. Bernie agrees with David’s point, although it depends on the predictability of the input. When our senses encounter an unpredictable event, consciousness is needed to make the unpredictable, predictable. For biologically important events, like avoiding dangers or keeping your child from harm, consciousness is even more deeply involved.
Can consciousness be seen as the key to understanding our surroundings and organizing our actions?
David’s father, Gerald Edelman, was a famous biologist who thought deeply about consciousness, and wondered about the philosophical question of the causality of consciousness. Bernie offers that awareness is not only useful for interpretation of the world, but also for associative creativity. In general, consciousness is needed to reduce uncertainty and increase predictability.
Bernie and David then examine some of the classical experiments on integrative sensory processing. The cognitive scientist David Eagleman has done pioneering work on synesthesia, the ability some people have to link words and numbers with specific colors or sounds or feeling tones — a kind of 'merging of sensations'. Synesthesia is one aspect of artistic creativity that seems to require conscious involvement. Bernie suggests that consciousness has a kind of a pointing role, that allows us to emphasize important events in the world, and to communicate those events to each other.
In the final moments of the episode, Bernie and David agree that the conscious brain is remarkably adaptable to an enormous range of new and biologically important events. This “consciously-mediated adaptability” clearly disappears when we do not pay attention or get distracted, or lose alertness.
The conscious brain appears to have major bio-cultural functions.
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Bios
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Department of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
Monday Jun 06, 2022
#21 — The Duet of Physics & Psychology with Psychophysicist, Stanley Klein
Monday Jun 06, 2022
Monday Jun 06, 2022
"Subjectivity and consciousness are the two main mysteries that science is still faced with. I'm an optimist. I believe that in the next half a century we might make progress on understanding consciousness."
- Stanley A. Klein, psychophysicist, professor of Vision Science and Optometry at the University of California, Berkeley and a member of the Berkeley Visual Processing Laboratory.
Episode 21: The Duet of Physics & Psychology with Psychophysicist, Stanley Klein
In episode 21 of our podcast “On Consciousness” we welcome psychophysicist Stanley Klein, Professor of Vision Science and Optometry at the University of California, Berkeley. Stan’s major area of research is neuropsychology and neurotechnology, a field of science that studies the body and mind through the nervous system by electronics and mechanisms. Stan was a Consulting Editor for Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, a publication of the Psychonomic Society. In this conversation Bernie and Stanley discuss the links between physics & psychology, Galileo’s contributions, and how science grows.
Talking Points
0:00 – Intro
6:17 – Stan Klein’s academic and professional journey
14:50 – Does the brain enable the conscious mind?
22:16 – How Galileo helped to found physics.
32:06 – How do we agree on the nature of nature?
39:15 – The growth of physics
45:38 – Science grows through honest conversations.
53:50 – Stan Klein on the future of science
Summary
How do you think about subjectivity?
This friendly conversation is opened by Nat Geld, our podcast producer. She asks Stan how he thinks about subjectivity. Stan’s optimistic view is that within the next 40 years or so, science might be able to understand subjectivity and consciousness.
Bernie and Stan start a dialogue about his professional journey. As a physics undergraduate at Cal Tech, Stan had the honor of publishing a paper with Richard Feynman, the great physicist. After earning his PhD from Brandeis University in 1967, Stan taught at Claremont Colleges and finally arrived at the School of Optometry at UC Berkeley, where he has been since 1987.
Consciousness and the Brain
Stan asks, "Is consciousness located exclusively in the brain?"
Bernie says, “Consciousness emerges in an enormous universe of nature, but only in a very small part of that universe. All the conscious species we know are animals living in the outer crust of planet earth. Empirically, we know nothing else. These days, this brutal fact tends to be forgotten because we have so many speculative ideas that tend to confuse us about the basics. But in science, we always need to start from what we know for sure.
To the best of our knowledge today, the animal brain is the home of the conscious mind.”
Scientific definitions change over time.
For Galileo, gravity meant the speed of wooden blocks sliding down angled planes. For Newton, gravity meant the attractive force of planets in orbit around the sun. Finally, for Einstein, gravity meant the influence of time and space on the apparent acceleration of objects in space.
There is both great continuity between Galileo, Newton and Einstein, and at the same time, there is a constantly evolving concept of gravity.
The concept of consciousness is also evolving with every new discovery.
Stan suggests that the big revolution in physics occurred in the 1920s with the discovery that a photon can be a wave or a particle. Einstein passionately opposed this idea, and tried to disprove it for the rest of his life. That debate still continues today.
Bernie then mentions that new ideas and discoveries are always hard to accept, and they usually require a period of debate and adaptation. The idea of the conscious brain is now going through just such a period. But of course both sides tell stories from their own points of view. One side explains how the Vatican unreasonably refused to accept Galileo, and the other side explains how Galileo unreasonably refused to accept the Vatican. This is a perfectly normal debate in the history of science. There are two sides, not just one.
In the episode's final moments, Ilian talks with Stan about what he believes to be the future of science. "Science needs to focus on climate change," says Stan. "I believe that in the next half a century we might make progress on understanding consciousness."
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Bios
Stanley A. Klein is an American psychophysicist. He is a Professor of Vision Science and Optometry at the University of California, Berkeley and a member of the Berkeley Visual Processing Laboratory. He was a consulting editor for Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, a publication of the Psychosomatic Society which promotes the communication of scientific research in psychology and allied sciences. His major area of research has been neurotechnology, a field of science that studies the body and mind through the nervous system by electronics and mechanisms. He was the co-chair for the SPIE (an international society of the science and application of light) meetings on human vision. Klein has authored and co-authored numerous papers on visual perception in the human brain.
Ilian Daskalov is a senior undergraduate student at University of California, Irvine where he studies Cognitive Science. He holds an associate degree with honors from San Diego Mesa College. His research interests include sleep, psychedelics, and artificial intelligence. He is passionate about communicating science and promoting critical thinking.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
Friday Sep 25, 2020
Friday Sep 25, 2020
"The only way we get certainty or stability in the world is to start from what we know, and gradually move to what we don't know."
- Bernard Baars, PhD, originator of the Global Workspace Theory, a theory of cognitive architecture and consciousness.
Episode 13: "Thinking About Animal Consciousness"
The question of whether some non-human animals are capable of awareness has vexed psychologists, neuroscientists, and philosophers of mind for many decades. In the final episode of Season One of The Podcast On Consciousness, Bernard Baars and David Edelman attempt to demystify animal consciousness. They suggest a comparative framework for investigating subjectivity that considers the human case as a benchmark, but at the same time emphasizes a kind of behavioral output as a form of report, akin to the language-based reports used in studies of human consciousness.
Talking Points:
0:04 – Intro
1:38 – Where in the brain is consciousness located?
7:44 – Consciousness in non-mammalian animals
11:00 – The visual cortex
17:15 – How is consciousness defined?
25:01 - Behaviors as markers for subjectivity
30:02 –Sensory consciousness and higher order self-awareness
34:14 – Do cephalopods belong to the big C-club?
40:22 – The awareness of the self
Bios:
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Department of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
Get a 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
GO TO: https://shop.thenautiluspress.com/collections/baars
APPLY DISCOUNT CODE AT CHECKOUT: "PODCASTVIP"
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Monday May 18, 2020
Monday May 18, 2020
"You highlighted the difference that makes a difference. Тhis is not only a neat catchphrase, but there's also something very deep about it. And sleep, in fact, is a really interesting aspect of behavior, that maybe gives us a window on the difference between conscious and non-conscious processes in the brain, because there is a distinct difference and it is recordable."
- David Edelman, PhD, A neuroscientist and a Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College
EPISODE 9: Roundtable Part Two - What is the Difference That Makes a Difference?
In a continuation from their previous conversation, Neuroscientist David Edelman and Developmental Neuropsychiatrist Jay Giedd, Professor of Psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine and Director of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry at Rady Children's Hospital are joined by Bernard Baars, the originator of the global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. In this contemplative conversation the trio touches on subjects involving how consciousness gets defined, the developing process of an adolescent human brain, and the role that sensory organs play in an individual's perception of reality.
Get your 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
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Talking Points
0:00 – Intro by David Edelman.
2:00 – David Edelman welcomes Bernard Baars to the conversation.
2:31 – Edelman initiates the discussion by revealing what consciousness means to him and how it could be reduced to main aspects (An idea which is based on his father’s views).
6:22 – Baars points out that the exploration of consciousness is an idea that has been an inevitable part of humanity and a necessary trait.
9:40 – Edelman and Baars discuss the importance of being able to socially broadcast your model of the world as part of the conscious experience.
13:17 - Giedd and Edelman discuss whether having some type of social skills is a requirement for consciousness or if it is instead a product of it.
19:12 – Jay makes a connection between social skills and the development of the cortex, its structure, and how important it appears to be for the emergence of consciousness
22:12 – The development and integration of neuronal connections in the brain, responsible for essential bodily functions such as heart rate and breathing.
24:35 – Is consciousness a constant or are there variations of it?
26:22 – The uniqueness of the olfactory system and its close interconnectedness to the emotional system.
30:31 – The sensation of smell and the human brain’s inability to recreate a memory of smell, the way it would for a visual image
32:11 – Baars steers the conversation towards visual perceptional differences.
34:55 – Jay Giedd discusses some of the rare conditions in humans which allow for the richer perception of external stimuli
Summary of the Conversation
Bernard Baars has often referred to consciousness as the difference that makes a difference. When we reflect on our everyday experience versus the absence of anything attended to or recalled, as is the case during a deep, dreamless sleep or under general anesthesia — that difference which distinguishes conscious experience from the rest of our mental lives becomes quite obvious.But, how would we characterize that difference?What is it about a particular animal’s makeup — its nervous and sensory systems, its behavior, its social interactions — that singles out that animal as truly conscious?
In this episode of ‘On Consciousness’, Baars, Edelman, and Giedd explore these questions in a thought-provoking discussion, starting with their perspectives on the nature of consciousness. To begin with, David posits a relatively straightforward definition of consciousness: namely, the weaving together of different sensory threads into a coherent unified percept and the persistence of that percept in memory. Bernie then offers that humans have studied consciousness for millennia, and out of that long rumination has come the realization that teaching and learning — the process of communicating and internalizing information — is an interactive exchange of conscious thought.
This social domain of conscious experience could therefore be subsumed within an operational definition of awareness — at least in the human case. As David points out (and Jay amplifies) Bernie’s emphasis on the kind of social interchange of conscious percepts that occurs between humans doesn't take into account the long history of life on earth and in particular the many animals with complex brains and elaborate sensory faculties that have preceded us.
Human sociality is a recent evolutionary innovation, and it seems clear that some form of consciousness existed long before we came along. And, while Bernard emphasizes the idea that human sociality accommodates our conscious experience, Jay flips this on its head, suggesting instead that consciousness may be what ultimately affords our particular social lives as humans.
Moreover, for many non-human animals, survival and reproduction are contingent on social skills — but this was true long before humans walked the earth. In any case, as Jay points out, we should be able to infer whether an animal has the capacity to convey its interpretation of reality to others from the structure and function of its nervous system. Such an inference would be strongly suggestive of a rich conscious life.
Next, the conversation focuses on the role of certain brain structures and sensory faculties in defining and elaborating conscious experience. In the case of human development, we can track the emergence of different perceptual and cognitive capacities, as well as the elaboration of underlying brain areas and circuitry, from infancy well into adulthood. Thus, as Jay suggests, we could in principle observe as the capacity to weave together sensory percepts into a neural representation emerges and is elaborated in the brain of a young child. In this regard, Jay asks two questions:
1) Can consciousness be considered as being on a ‘sliding scale’ during development?
2) Would we expect developing humans to get better at weaving together conscious percepts as they grow older?
With regard to evolution, radical distinctions between our sensory organs and those of animals quite distant from our phylogenetic line suggest that the varieties of conscious experience must be legion among animals. Even among humans, differences in sensory equipment must necessarily give rise to differences in conscious experience. Individuals with a condition known as Tetrachromacy — a genetic mutation that is expressed as an extra photopigment — can perceive finer gradations in the spectrum of visible light than the rest of us and are therefore capable of making color distinctions we would certainly miss.
The upshot of this lively exchange is that there is, indeed, a difference that makes a difference at the core of conscious experience, and it can be both observed in developing humans and inferred from the rich evolutionary history of complex life on earth. Though Bernie, Jay, and David barely scratch the surface of this tantalizing difference here, they provide listeners with ample armamentarium to forge ahead and continue the intellectual journey on their own.
BIOS
Dr. Jay Giedd
Chair of child psychiatry at Rady Children's Hospital-San Diego and director of child and adolescent psychiatry, Dr. Giedd is also a professor of psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine, and professor in the Dept of Population, Family and Reproductive Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
Dr. Giedd was chief of the Section on Brain Imaging, Child Psychiatry Branch of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). His widely published research and expertise evaluates how the child's brain develops in health and illness, the factors that influence development and how to optimize treatments to take advantage of the child's changing brain. Jay and his award winning work were featured in the PBS 2 part series "Brains on Trial" hosted by Alan Alda.
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Dept of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
*Watch Episode 9 on Our YouTube Channel!
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Thursday Apr 16, 2020
Thursday Apr 16, 2020
In this episode of "On Consciousness," neuroscientists Bernie Baars, Jeff Krichmar, and David Edelman engage in a freewheeling conversation that begins with mulling over the possible development of conscious machines -- or ‘conscious artifact,’ as Gerald Edelman put it -- sometime in the not-so-distant future.
We unpack the various ‘bumps in the road’ in the quest to build intelligent, sentient machines--the problems of efficiency (with regard to energy utilization, brains run circles around any present-day computers) and dissipation of heat in increasingly miniaturized microcircuitry, among others.
And though Bernie casts a critically important skeptic’s eye on the prospect of in silico conscious artifacts, we all eventually arrive at a sort of amicable consilience: a recognition that such a development is at least possible.After a tangential--but fun and diverting--foray into the thickets of human evolution and the serendipitous biocultural path that led to modern humans, we return to pondering the road leading to conscious artifacts.
We conclude on an optimistic note, with the promise of the biologically based approach so steadfastly championed by Jeff and a small community of like-minded computational neuroscientists.
Special Guest: Professor Jeff Krichmar, PhD, Department of Cognitive Sciences and the Department of Computer Sciences, University of California, Irvine: http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~jkrichma
Hosts
Cognitive psychobiologist and originator of GWT Bernard J. Baars, Author of "ON CONSCIOUSNESS: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory"
Neuroscientist and paleoanthropologist David Edelman, PhD, Visiting Scholar, Dept of Psychological & Brain Sciences, Dartmouth College
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Talking Points:
0:00 – David Edelman introduces himself and briefly describes his path to exploring consciousness (particularly in animals), starting as a human paleoanthropologist to studying the behavior of cephalopods.
3:11 – Jeff Krichmar introduces himself, summarizing how he went from being a computer scientist to one of the first neuroroboticists.
6:05 – Bernard Baars gives his thoughts on the trajectory of artificial consciousness and the hurdles in the scientific realm that one had to go through in the past, due to their interest in studying consciousness.
7:41 – David Edelman on the importance of defining consciousness and how the difference in brain activity during conscious (waking) and unconscious (sleeping) states makes consciousness an observable phenomenon that one can actively study.
11:30 – Bernard Baars on why attributing consciousness to a machine would be an ambitious task.
12:52 – Counterarguments by David and Jeff to Bernie’s proposal on how consciousness in machines can emerge.
17:33 – Jeff Krichmar on how energy efficiency is essential for the improvement of our computers in order to be able to simulate a human brain.
23:11 – Baars initiating a conversation revolving around the expensiveness and disadvantages of the human brain’s size.
28:30 – Edelman on how human sociality has impacted the survivability of the species.
32:08 – Edelman, Krichmar, and Baars discussing the possible existence, timeline, and road to “conscious artifacts” in the near future.
39:10 – Edelman and Krichmar close out the conversation with a brief discussion on the evolution of neural networks and the moral and ethical concerns in the field.
**Watch the Bonus Video Episode: The History of Brain-Based Devices and Cognitive Robots with Neuroroboticist Jeff Krichmar
Jeff Krichmar discusses how an overarching theory of the brain, known as Neural Darwinism, was tested using a series of increasingly complex Brain-Based Devices. These robots show cognitive behavior, such as perception, goal-driven behavior, learning and memory.
This led to the development of the emerging fields of Neurorobots and Cognitive Robotics where Krichmar and other researchers are making smarter robots based on how brain activity lead to interesting behavior.
Visuals Credits:
Visualization of MRI brain scan data from a single person, showing nerve fiber bundles near or feeding into part of the hippocampus. Neuroscientist Tyler Ard, NIH-supported lab of Arthur Toga, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles
Jim Stanis, Arthur W. Toga, Ryan Cabeen, Laboratory of Neuro Imaging (LONI), USC Stevens Neuroimaging and Informatics Institute;
NIH Brain initiative 2019 Network architecture of the long-distance pathways in the macaque brain. Dharmendra S. Modha, Raghavendra Singh. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Jul 2010, 107 (30) 13485-13490; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1008054107
Dynamic mapping of human cortical development during childhood through early adulthood. Nitin Gogtay, Jay N. Giedd, Leslie Lusk, Kiralee M. Hayashi, Deanna Greenstein, A. Catherine Vaituzis, Tom F. Nugent, David H. Herman, Liv S. Clasen, Arthur W. Toga, Judith L. Rapoport, Paul M. Thompson. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences May 2004, 101 (21) 8174-8179; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0402680101