David Edelman
David Edelman
Tuesday Nov 22, 2022
#24 — The Conscious Brain Evolved with David Edelman, Jay Giedd & Mark Mitton
Tuesday Nov 22, 2022
Tuesday Nov 22, 2022
The home of the late Nobel Laureate, Gerald Edelman, is the setting for this elevated discussion on human consciousness. In this episode, Bernie is joined by Gerald's son and neuroscientist David Edelman, developmental neuropsychiatrist Dr. Jay Giedd, and professional magician Mark Mitton.
What level of biology is relevant to the study of conscious processing? Is it a matter of molecules? Or cells? Or networks?
Talking Points
0:00 – The Biological Level of the Conscious Brain
6:28 – Like Evolution, Consciousness is Highly Adaptive
12:27 – Like Magic, Inductive Science is Highly Adaptive and Full of Surprises
18:05 – How Magic Plays With The Limited Capacity of the Conscious Brain
23:18 – The Hippocampus and Amygdala are Two Evolved Structures of the Brain
28:39 – Deception and Self Deception Create Mismatches Between Reality and Expectations
36:25 – The Immune System and the Brain Are Both Highly Adaptable
Links
— Website and Social Media —
Show Notes: Ep #24 Full Summary
Website: https://bernardbaars.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/BernardJBaars
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BernardJBaars/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernardjbaars/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/OnConsciousnesswithBernardBaars
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/baarslab/?hl=en
— David Edelman, PhD —
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-edelman-b5b16315/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/doctorocto
Elsevier: https://www.elsevier.com/connect/contributors/david-edelman-phd
— Jay Giedd, PhD —
University of California, San Diego: https://profiles.ucsd.edu/jay.giedd
Doximity: https://www.doximity.com/pub/jay-giedd-md
Brain and Behavior Foundation: https://www.bbrfoundation.org/about/people/jay-n-giedd-md-0
— Mark Mitton —
Personal Website: http://markmitton.com/index.html
Twitter: https://twitter.com/mark_mitton?lang=en
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-mitton-4204696/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/markmittonmagic/?hl=en
Monday Jul 11, 2022
Monday Jul 11, 2022
“Can consciousness be seen as the key to understanding our surroundings and organizing our actions?” — David Edelman, PhD, Neuroscientist and Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College
Ep 22: Consciousness Has an Integrative Function with Neuroscientist, David Edelman
Episode 22 of our podcast On Consciousness brings back neuroscientist David Edelman, who graciously hosted this discussion in the home of his late father, Nobel Laureate Gerald M. Edelman. Some have argued that consciousness is only a side effect of the brain, but from an evolutionary point of view, major adaptations result from intense genetic pressures, which are causal. The exact nature of that causality is still under debate. One evolutionary function of consciousness is likely to be sensory and action (motor) integration. It seems that consciousness is needed anytime two sensory events have to be combined, like the sound of a bird and the sight of that same bird, or the sound of a singer and her lip movements. Even this sentence requires conscious involvement to combine the beginning with its ending. Consciousness has an integrative function.
Talking Points
0:00 – Intro by Nat Geld
0:53 – Is awareness just a side effect of the brain?
5:56 – Does consciousness occur with a delay?
9:13 – Resolving Ambiguity in the World
12:59 – From Uncertainty to Predictability: A major function of consciousness.
18:33 – Fine-tuning the Senses: Perceptual learning.
Summary
Controversies Over Causality
Bernie and David mull over the causal role of consciousness in the brain. Bernie mentions that Darwin’s public advocate, Thomas Henry Huxley, claimed that consciousness might only be a side effect of the brain in the way that the steam whistle of a locomotive can be considered to be a side effect of the heating of the giant steam vessel. But this seems to violate the physics of the conservation of energy — the steam vessel is, in fact, driving the train whistle. Still, the notion of consciousness as a side effect continues to be debated in philosophy.
David then suggests that one causal role for consciousness may be a retrospective glance at sensory information in the very brief time after visual neurons are activated.
David suggests that consciousness may involve a retrospective assessment as opposed to anything else. Bernie agrees with David’s point, although it depends on the predictability of the input. When our senses encounter an unpredictable event, consciousness is needed to make the unpredictable, predictable. For biologically important events, like avoiding dangers or keeping your child from harm, consciousness is even more deeply involved.
Can consciousness be seen as the key to understanding our surroundings and organizing our actions?
David’s father, Gerald Edelman, was a famous biologist who thought deeply about consciousness, and wondered about the philosophical question of the causality of consciousness. Bernie offers that awareness is not only useful for interpretation of the world, but also for associative creativity. In general, consciousness is needed to reduce uncertainty and increase predictability.
Bernie and David then examine some of the classical experiments on integrative sensory processing. The cognitive scientist David Eagleman has done pioneering work on synesthesia, the ability some people have to link words and numbers with specific colors or sounds or feeling tones — a kind of 'merging of sensations'. Synesthesia is one aspect of artistic creativity that seems to require conscious involvement. Bernie suggests that consciousness has a kind of a pointing role, that allows us to emphasize important events in the world, and to communicate those events to each other.
In the final moments of the episode, Bernie and David agree that the conscious brain is remarkably adaptable to an enormous range of new and biologically important events. This “consciously-mediated adaptability” clearly disappears when we do not pay attention or get distracted, or lose alertness.
The conscious brain appears to have major bio-cultural functions.
Get a 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
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Bios
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Department of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
Friday Sep 25, 2020
Friday Sep 25, 2020
"The only way we get certainty or stability in the world is to start from what we know, and gradually move to what we don't know."
- Bernard Baars, PhD, originator of the Global Workspace Theory, a theory of cognitive architecture and consciousness.
Episode 13: "Thinking About Animal Consciousness"
The question of whether some non-human animals are capable of awareness has vexed psychologists, neuroscientists, and philosophers of mind for many decades. In the final episode of Season One of The Podcast On Consciousness, Bernard Baars and David Edelman attempt to demystify animal consciousness. They suggest a comparative framework for investigating subjectivity that considers the human case as a benchmark, but at the same time emphasizes a kind of behavioral output as a form of report, akin to the language-based reports used in studies of human consciousness.
Talking Points:
0:04 – Intro
1:38 – Where in the brain is consciousness located?
7:44 – Consciousness in non-mammalian animals
11:00 – The visual cortex
17:15 – How is consciousness defined?
25:01 - Behaviors as markers for subjectivity
30:02 –Sensory consciousness and higher order self-awareness
34:14 – Do cephalopods belong to the big C-club?
40:22 – The awareness of the self
Bios:
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Department of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
Get a 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
GO TO: https://shop.thenautiluspress.com/collections/baars
APPLY DISCOUNT CODE AT CHECKOUT: "PODCASTVIP"
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Tuesday Jun 30, 2020
Tuesday Jun 30, 2020
"Episodic memory involves conscious experiences being encoded. Same goes for semantic and autobiographical memories. All varieties of memories come in through conscious moments of recall. So, I think that consciousness is the means by which any kinds of memories are established."
- Bernard Baars, PhD, originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences, and a recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society.
EPISODE 11: Roundtable Part Four "Brain Regions and Neural Functions Critical to Conscious States"
In the final episode of their roundtable talks, originator of Global Workspace Theory Bernard Baars, neuroscientist David Edelman, and developmental neuropsychiatrist Dr. Jay Giedd conclude their discussion by analyzing the brain areas which are critical for higher brain function, neuroimaging techniques associated with detecting conscious experiences, and the possible existence of consciousness in non-mammalian animals.
Get your 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
GO TO: https://shop.thenautiluspress.com/collections/baars
APPLY DISCOUNT CODE AT CHECKOUT: "PODCASTVIP"
Talking Points
00:03 – Introduction by David Edelman
02:09 – The Role of Thalamus and Cortex in Higher Brain Processing
08:08 – Is Memory Fundamental to Consciousness
12:14 – Brain Variations Between Mammals and Other Animals
16:22 – Differences Between Sleep and Awake States in the Human Brain
Summary of the Conversation
In this absorbing episode of ‘On Consciousness,’ Bernard Baars, David Edelman, and developmental neuropsychiatrist Dr. Jay Giedd initiate the conversation by considering the functional aspects of the brain that are believed to be absolutely critical to consciousness.
Bernie, Jay, and David ponder the role of cortex and thalamus in higher brain function, including conscious processing. Bernie underlines the problem of considering the linkage between thalamus and cortex as merely a simple feedback loop. From an engineering perspective, this sort of circuit could not possibly work as such an arrangement would inevitably, as Bernie puts it, lead to effective failure of the thalamocortical circuit. Instead, it seems to be the case that the cortex functions in a state of near-criticality. As Jay indicates, this implies that the cortex is always at a tipping point, i.e., close to a phase transition and “always ready to be influenced.”
Elucidating the neurobiology of consciousness has been somewhat hindered by technical hurdles. But, despite the spatial and temporal limitations of current neurophysiological and imaging technologies, David observes that certain aspects of brain anatomy—including cortex and thalamus—have been established as the sine qua non of conscious experience in mammals. In an optimistic vein, Jay offers that new combinations of existing techniques (such as MEG, EEG, and fMRI) may soon yield a much clearer picture.
Next, Edelman, Baars, and Giedd consider the idea that certain higher neural processes are central to consciousness, even though those processes may often function independently of any state of awareness. Memory, which seems to be fundamental to conscious experience, is one such process. While memory and recall figure prominently in conscious experience, it’s certainly the case that some varieties of memory are regularly engaged during non-conscious states and behaviors.
The trio concludes the conversation by reflecting on the prospect of consciousness as a biological phenomenon. Additionally, they consider the possibility of consciousness in animals distant from the mammalian line and as it is the case of the octopus, a creature separated from the vertebrate radiation by more than half a billion years. The octopus as a possible test case for consciousness beyond the realm of vertebrates is particularly tantalizing, given that, unlike mammals, it has neither a cerebral cortex nor a thalamus.
Bios
Dr. Jay Giedd
Chair of child psychiatry at Rady Children's Hospital-San Diego and director of child and adolescent psychiatry, Dr. Giedd is also a professor of psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine, and professor in the Dept of Population, Family and Reproductive Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
Dr. Giedd was chief of the Section on Brain Imaging, Child Psychiatry Branch of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). His widely published research and expertise evaluates how the child's brain develops in health and illness, the factors that influence development and how to optimize treatments to take advantage of the child's changing brain. Jay and his award winning work were featured in the PBS 2 part series "Brains on Trial" hosted by Alan Alda.
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Dept of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
*Watch Episode 11 on Our YouTube Channel!
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Monday May 18, 2020
Monday May 18, 2020
"You highlighted the difference that makes a difference. Тhis is not only a neat catchphrase, but there's also something very deep about it. And sleep, in fact, is a really interesting aspect of behavior, that maybe gives us a window on the difference between conscious and non-conscious processes in the brain, because there is a distinct difference and it is recordable."
- David Edelman, PhD, A neuroscientist and a Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College
EPISODE 9: Roundtable Part Two - What is the Difference That Makes a Difference?
In a continuation from their previous conversation, Neuroscientist David Edelman and Developmental Neuropsychiatrist Jay Giedd, Professor of Psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine and Director of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry at Rady Children's Hospital are joined by Bernard Baars, the originator of the global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. In this contemplative conversation the trio touches on subjects involving how consciousness gets defined, the developing process of an adolescent human brain, and the role that sensory organs play in an individual's perception of reality.
Get your 40% Discount for your copy of Bernie Baars' acclaimed new book On Consciousness: Science & Subjectivity - Updated Works on Global Workspace Theory
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Talking Points
0:00 – Intro by David Edelman.
2:00 – David Edelman welcomes Bernard Baars to the conversation.
2:31 – Edelman initiates the discussion by revealing what consciousness means to him and how it could be reduced to main aspects (An idea which is based on his father’s views).
6:22 – Baars points out that the exploration of consciousness is an idea that has been an inevitable part of humanity and a necessary trait.
9:40 – Edelman and Baars discuss the importance of being able to socially broadcast your model of the world as part of the conscious experience.
13:17 - Giedd and Edelman discuss whether having some type of social skills is a requirement for consciousness or if it is instead a product of it.
19:12 – Jay makes a connection between social skills and the development of the cortex, its structure, and how important it appears to be for the emergence of consciousness
22:12 – The development and integration of neuronal connections in the brain, responsible for essential bodily functions such as heart rate and breathing.
24:35 – Is consciousness a constant or are there variations of it?
26:22 – The uniqueness of the olfactory system and its close interconnectedness to the emotional system.
30:31 – The sensation of smell and the human brain’s inability to recreate a memory of smell, the way it would for a visual image
32:11 – Baars steers the conversation towards visual perceptional differences.
34:55 – Jay Giedd discusses some of the rare conditions in humans which allow for the richer perception of external stimuli
Summary of the Conversation
Bernard Baars has often referred to consciousness as the difference that makes a difference. When we reflect on our everyday experience versus the absence of anything attended to or recalled, as is the case during a deep, dreamless sleep or under general anesthesia — that difference which distinguishes conscious experience from the rest of our mental lives becomes quite obvious.But, how would we characterize that difference?What is it about a particular animal’s makeup — its nervous and sensory systems, its behavior, its social interactions — that singles out that animal as truly conscious?
In this episode of ‘On Consciousness’, Baars, Edelman, and Giedd explore these questions in a thought-provoking discussion, starting with their perspectives on the nature of consciousness. To begin with, David posits a relatively straightforward definition of consciousness: namely, the weaving together of different sensory threads into a coherent unified percept and the persistence of that percept in memory. Bernie then offers that humans have studied consciousness for millennia, and out of that long rumination has come the realization that teaching and learning — the process of communicating and internalizing information — is an interactive exchange of conscious thought.
This social domain of conscious experience could therefore be subsumed within an operational definition of awareness — at least in the human case. As David points out (and Jay amplifies) Bernie’s emphasis on the kind of social interchange of conscious percepts that occurs between humans doesn't take into account the long history of life on earth and in particular the many animals with complex brains and elaborate sensory faculties that have preceded us.
Human sociality is a recent evolutionary innovation, and it seems clear that some form of consciousness existed long before we came along. And, while Bernard emphasizes the idea that human sociality accommodates our conscious experience, Jay flips this on its head, suggesting instead that consciousness may be what ultimately affords our particular social lives as humans.
Moreover, for many non-human animals, survival and reproduction are contingent on social skills — but this was true long before humans walked the earth. In any case, as Jay points out, we should be able to infer whether an animal has the capacity to convey its interpretation of reality to others from the structure and function of its nervous system. Such an inference would be strongly suggestive of a rich conscious life.
Next, the conversation focuses on the role of certain brain structures and sensory faculties in defining and elaborating conscious experience. In the case of human development, we can track the emergence of different perceptual and cognitive capacities, as well as the elaboration of underlying brain areas and circuitry, from infancy well into adulthood. Thus, as Jay suggests, we could in principle observe as the capacity to weave together sensory percepts into a neural representation emerges and is elaborated in the brain of a young child. In this regard, Jay asks two questions:
1) Can consciousness be considered as being on a ‘sliding scale’ during development?
2) Would we expect developing humans to get better at weaving together conscious percepts as they grow older?
With regard to evolution, radical distinctions between our sensory organs and those of animals quite distant from our phylogenetic line suggest that the varieties of conscious experience must be legion among animals. Even among humans, differences in sensory equipment must necessarily give rise to differences in conscious experience. Individuals with a condition known as Tetrachromacy — a genetic mutation that is expressed as an extra photopigment — can perceive finer gradations in the spectrum of visible light than the rest of us and are therefore capable of making color distinctions we would certainly miss.
The upshot of this lively exchange is that there is, indeed, a difference that makes a difference at the core of conscious experience, and it can be both observed in developing humans and inferred from the rich evolutionary history of complex life on earth. Though Bernie, Jay, and David barely scratch the surface of this tantalizing difference here, they provide listeners with ample armamentarium to forge ahead and continue the intellectual journey on their own.
BIOS
Dr. Jay Giedd
Chair of child psychiatry at Rady Children's Hospital-San Diego and director of child and adolescent psychiatry, Dr. Giedd is also a professor of psychiatry at UCSD School of Medicine, and professor in the Dept of Population, Family and Reproductive Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
Dr. Giedd was chief of the Section on Brain Imaging, Child Psychiatry Branch of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). His widely published research and expertise evaluates how the child's brain develops in health and illness, the factors that influence development and how to optimize treatments to take advantage of the child's changing brain. Jay and his award winning work were featured in the PBS 2 part series "Brains on Trial" hosted by Alan Alda.
David Edelman, PhD: A neuroscientist and currently Visiting Scholar in the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at Dartmouth College, David has taught neuroscience at the University of San Diego and UCSD. He was Professor of Neuroscience at Bennington College until 2014 and visiting professor in the Dept of Psychology, CUNY Brooklyn College from 2015-2017.
He has conducted research in a wide range of areas, including mechanisms of gene regulation, the relationship between mitochondrial transport and brain activity, and visual perception in the octopus. A longstanding interest in the neural basis of consciousness led him to consider the importance—and challenge—of disseminating a more global view of brain function to a broad audience.
Bernard Baars is best known as the originator of global workspace theory and global workspace dynamics, a theory of human cognitive architecture, the cortex and consciousness. Bernie is a former Senior Fellow in Theoretical Neurobiology at the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, CA, and Editor in Chief of the Society for MindBrain Sciences. He is author of many scientific papers, articles, essays, chapters, and acclaimed books and textbooks.
Bernie is the recipient of the 2019 Hermann von Helmholtz Life Contribution Award by the International Neural Network Society, which recognizes work in perception proven to be paradigm changing and long-lasting.
He teaches science. It keeps him out of trouble.
*Watch Episode 9 on Our YouTube Channel!
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